Public Meeting Regarding First Chicago and Banc One
Thursday, August 13, 1998
Transcript of Panel Ten
17 MS. RANGAN: Good afternoon. My name is Rashmi
18 Rangan. I'm the Executive Director of Delaware
19 Community Reinvestment Action Council. I am also a
20 board member of the National Community Reinvestment
21 Coalition, which is a great association of 650 plus
22 organizations. I am also a member of Inner City
23 Press Community on the move.
24 And I am here today to testify against
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1 this merger. And this is the second time I'm
2 testifying against Banc One acquiring another
3 bank.
4 And the last time, we had brought selfish
5 use before the Federal Reserve Board and many of
6 them have been justified in today's testimony.
7 Every concern that we raised earlier has been
8 spoken today.
9 The treatment of the consumers, the
10 customers at Banc One's hands, the fair lending
11 concerns that we have had, the predatory lending
12 concerns that we have had about Banc One have been
13 attested to today.
14 Before I address my concerns with Banc
15 One, let me address my concerns with this
16 particular process today.
17 It is probably appropriate that you have
18 renamed public hearings by calling it public
19 meetings. Apparently you're no longer willing to
20 hear what we have to say, but we do have a lot to
21 say, particularly about Banc One's record.
22 Based on the factors that the Board must
23 consider in approving this application and the
24 managerial issues, many, many concerns have already
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1 been addressed, but I will refer you to a few.
2 The first one, Dr. Kenneth Thomas has
3 already commented on in his July 27th, 1998,
4 communication to you regarding the management's
5 apparent violation of confidentiality of individual
6 examination ratings on Y2K.
7 In Arizona, the Attorney General's case,
8 and in Texas the HUD's apparent acceptance that
9 there is discrimination, Banc One has been charged
10 with discrimination, and this after the Fed's own
11 conditional approval in recent application by Banc
12 One where Banc One acquired First USA, a Delaware
13 bank.
14 Apparently, Banc One failed to meet the
15 Fed's condition. On these grounds alone, this
16 application should be denied.
17 Banc One, we charged previously -- we'll
18 repeat this charge today -- is a predatory lender
19 through its finance company. And while we have
20 raised this issue many times, we sense that the
21 Feds really do not understand the full import of
22 our accusations. Therefore, attached as Exhibit A
23 to my testimony today is a catalogue of predatory
24 mortgage lending abusive practices prepared by
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1 Mr. Bill Brenan of Atlanta Legal Aid Society.
2 Please review that very carefully.
3 We have asked the Feds previously to
4 review the finance company's subsidiary of the bank
5 holding company and its lending record. We repeat
6 again today, we and others have presented ample
7 evidence of the existence of predatory and
8 discriminatory lending practices practiced by Banc
9 One finance companies.
10 In 1995 through the finance company, it
11 approved 7,805 loans. 1996, 32,712. So it has
12 actually grown in size, a 319 percent increase of
13 lending through its finance company.
14 You have seen many HMDA analyses all point
15 to the very same concern that we have for the
16 second time presented today.
17 On convenience and needs issues, how can
18 the convenience and needs of my community be served
19 when the acquirer, Banc One, has shown a remarkable
20 disdain for Delaware?
21 May I remind the Board of concerns we
22 raised when Banc One applied to acquire First USA?
23 First USA, a limited purpose bank, cited its
24 inability to meet its CRA obligations and, hence,
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1 established First USA, FSB.
2 When Banc One acquired First USA, the
3 thrift was gone. Relative to Banc One/First USA,
4 after the merger, meeting the convenience and needs
5 of my community, it is abysmal.
6 In comparison, FCC and its CRA officer,
7 Mr. Roland Ridgeway, have not let the standard
8 excuse that. The limited purpose bank status nor
9 the Delaware Financial Center Development Act
10 restrictions get in the way of meeting these
11 obligations under the CRA.
12 At issue here is not -- I'll take only
13 half a minute. At issue is not who, where and how
14 much each bank does or gives individually or
15 collectively. At issue here today is the who from,
16 the where from and the how much does Banc One take
17 away from the community through its predatory
18 lending practices. On these grounds alone, this
19 application must be denied.
20 Thank you.
21 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Reynolds.
23 MR. REYNOLDS: Thank you. Greetings. My name
24 is Jerry Reynolds. I will be delivering the
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1 remarks of Rebecca Adamson, President of First
2 Nations Development Institute, a Native American
3 economic development organization of 18 years
4 standing headquartered in Fredericksburg,
5 Virginia.
6 Ms. Adamson could not be here today, but
7 from our Information Services Department, I monitor
8 Community Reinvestment Act issues as they pertain
9 to our country. I'm a board member of the National
10 Community Reinvestment Coalition.
11 I spoke with a consultant to a tribal
12 council some weeks ago. In the midst of our
13 conversation, he made the statement: The tribe is
14 isolated. It's a 200-mile round trip for
15 necessities like cash.
16 More than three-quarters of one million
17 Native Americans and tribes reside in the market
18 area that would be created in the proposed
19 acquisition of First Chicago NBD Corporation by
20 Banc One. Many of them are as remote to the
21 nearest banking services, and some more so.
22 Sadly, a First Nations Development
23 Institute survey, which is attached to our written
24 testimony, of Native American banking needs within
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1 the merged entities' market area found that much
2 less remote tribes, tribes within a 20 to 40-mile
3 range of Banc One branches, have been regularly
4 neglected by Banc One.
5 My point is that geography is a major
6 hurdle to the provision of banking and financial
7 services to Native Americans. The proposed merger,
8 if approved, would provide the new entity with the
9 resources to get over this geographic hurdle. With
10 these resources, the bank should be able to absorb
11 the development cost of products and services that
12 would enable it to surmount some of the geographic
13 challenges to lending in Indian Country.
14 Given that Banc One's record of services
15 to Native American communities according to our
16 survey findings is characterized by a concentration
17 on a cream of the crop, on those native communities
18 whose more evolved economies translate to lower
19 risk for banking activities, the Board's approval
20 of the merger should be contingent upon substantial
21 improvements in Banc One's outreach and deliverable
22 services to native communities, including urban
23 native populations who starve for credit in cities
24 with an abundance of Banc One branches.
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1 Again, the augmented resources of the
2 merged entities should provide the incentive for
3 business initiatives.
4 Further, the new Banc One should be
5 required to develop plans for native specific loan
6 products in coordination with the diversity of
7 Native American groups, an approach recommended
8 toward other community groups by First Chicago
9 chairman Verne Istock. This would contribute in
10 future to sidetracking such avoidable debacles as
11 Banc One's disaster and with mobile unit banks.
12 When the initiative first began to bring
13 credibility Banc One's way through newspaper
14 articles and conference presentations, First
15 Nations was reluctant to criticize a financial
16 institution that was at least trying to make credit
17 available in Indian Country.
18 Still, we had strong doubts about an
19 initiative that amounted to little more than
20 rolling out 20th Century technology, the
21 automobile, to serve 19th Century needs, personal
22 and consumer loans.
23 Now that Banc One having reaped a windfall
24 of publicity but no profit has garaged this
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1 antiquated road show and left Indian Country to
2 overcome its failure, we can assert with certainty
3 that sustained collaboration with the diversity of
4 native groups has been the missing ingredient in
5 Banc One's limited approaches to Indian Country.
6 For starters, mobile units in the 21st
7 century must be fully operational banks securitized
8 through satellite communications technology. No
9 one will have to ride shotgun.
10 In the event the merger is approved, we
11 trust the Federal Reserve to urge the updated
12 approach to mobile unit banking on Banc One's
13 attention.
14 I want to digress briefly from my prepared
15 remarks to say that I was in a major meeting in
16 banking in Indian Country, and already, some Native
17 Americans are saying that they can't see mobile
18 unit banking as a way to serve Indian Country. .
19 I believe that Banc One's failure in this
20 regard has a chance to make mobile unit banking a
21 nonstarter in Indian Country. That would be a
22 great misfortune.
23 First Nations also wishes to acknowledge
24 some of the outstanding lending services that Banc
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1 One does provide in some native communities.
2 Some of these include a recent grant to a
3 North American Native Bankers Association. They
4 recently went on a site visit to Wisconsin to visit
5 some of the tribes there and their lending needs --
6 of course this happened while the merger process
7 was in full swing -- Gila and Camp Verde Yavapai
8 Apache Nation in Arizona as well as an internal
9 appointment of a team to familiarize Banc One
10 Mortgage Corporation with HUD Section 184 loan
11 guarantee programs show a flexibility and
12 consideration worthy of the merged entity.
13 Give me half a minute here.
14 Such commitments are considerable in
15 themselves, not to be minimized. But on this
16 momentous occasion, First Nations can affirm the
17 proposed merger only on the understanding that all
18 of Banc One's efforts in Indian Country to date
19 amount to a modest beginning.
20 We call upon bank regulators to ride herd
21 on their post-merger follow-through and upon Banc
22 One to establish a collaborative task force on
23 Native American lending and services as merging --
24 as other merging entities have done.
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1 Thank you.
2 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
3 Mr. VanTol.
4 MR. VANTOL: Good afternoon, Members of the
5 Panel. I am Hubert VanTol. I am the Cochair of
6 the Legislative Committee of the National Community
7 Reinvestment Coalition. I'm testifying this
8 afternoon on behalf of John Taylor, our President
9 and CEO, who is unavoidably unable to be here
10 today.
11 NCRC is the nation's CRA trade association
12 of over 680 community reinvestment organizations
13 from inner city neighborhoods and rural areas.
14 NCRC's members are dedicated to revitalizing low
15 income and minority communities.
16 As a trade association, we do not
17 regularly comment on applications to the Federal
18 Reserve Bank. We usually provide the research and
19 other support to our members who do the commenting
20 during the application process.
21 However, we have recently decided that we
22 do need to comment on the applications that present
23 significant public policy issues.
24 I am addressing two main issues this
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1 afternoon: Community reinvestment performance and
2 fair lending.
3 On the topic of community reinvestment
4 performance, simply put, mega mergers are harmful
5 for low income and minority communities if they
6 result in massive branch closures and drastic
7 decreases in lending and investing. This is why
8 NCRC has asked the Federal Reserve to require banks
9 to submit community reinvestment plans to the Board
10 and the reserve banks as part of their application
11 process.
12 These plans would outline how the merging
13 banks plan to maintain and increase the number of
14 loans, investments and services in lower income and
15 minority communities after mergers.
16 The community reinvestment plans would be
17 developed for each urban and rural community the
18 bank serves. Moreover, they would not be
19 unilateral like the mega pledges recently announced
20 by other large banks.
21 Instead, they would be responsive to
22 specific credit needs in various communities
23 because they would be developed with the input of
24 community organizations.
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1 The community reinvestment plans would
2 explain how lenders would preserve their CRA
3 performance in all of their major markets in the
4 wake of post-merger institutional changes.
5 For example, the CRA performance of Banc
6 One and First Chicago could deteriorate
7 substantially in the state of Indiana due to the
8 branch closures and divestiture requirements.
9 And you know, the State of Indiana is the
10 market where the bank's operations substantially
11 overlap, yet despite the looming changes
12 confronting Indiana's traditionally underserved
13 communities, Banc One has neither negotiated a CRA
14 agreement with the community organizations in
15 Indiana, nor has it submitted a community
16 reinvestment plan to the Federal Reserve explaining
17 how CRA performance will be maintained in the
18 state.
19 NCRC is pleased that First Chicago and NBD
20 have worked out CRA agreements with NCRC members in
21 Chicago and Detroit, however, these agreements
22 address CRA performances in two of Banc One's
23 markets.
24 In order for community reinvestment
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1 performance to be preserved in all of the bank's
2 markets, NCRC believes it is the responsibility of
3 the Federal Reserve Board to require the bank to
4 offer in detail the community reinvestment plan
5 explaining how it will maintain and improve its
6 post-merger CRA performance.
7 These plans would also be a starting point
8 for negotiations leading to CRA agreements with
9 community organizations.
10 In addition, the Federal Reserve Board
11 should issue conditional approvals in instances
12 where the applying banks do not satisfactorily
13 outline how CRA performance will be maintained in
14 places like Indiana and many others that are likely
15 to be affected by the merger.
16 On the topic of fair lending, over a year
17 ago, the Federal Reserve Board approved Banc One's
18 acquisition of First USA, a credit card lender,
19 despite unresolved fair lending issues.
20 In its approval order, the Federal Reserve
21 stated that it would impose conditions at a later
22 date if its investigation revealed fair lending
23 violations. NCRC and its members strongly believe
24 that this was an indication -- that this was an
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1 abdication of the Federal Reserve's responsibility
2 to enforce the nation's fair lending laws.
3 Fair lending problems will intensify if
4 the Federal Reserve does not complete fair lending
5 investigations and issue the necessary conditions
6 before acting on these latest Banc One
7 applications -- this latest Banc One application.
8 We ask the Federal Reserve to follow the
9 lead of its regulatory counterparts in seriously
10 investigating and issuing fair lending and CRA
11 conditional approvals when necessary. The Federal
12 Reserve should be leading its counterparts, but it
13 should at least follow them.
14 The OTS approval order of the Travelers
15 application is an example, likewise, the Office of
16 the Comptroller of The Currency's recent
17 conditional approval of First Union/Money Store
18 merger, which would require access for all
19 applicants to both prime and subprime lending
20 products.
21 We appreciate this opportunity to express
22 these significant reinvestment issues before you
23 that are associated with this merger.
24 We hope that the Federal Reserve Board
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1 does everything in its power to ensure fair lending
2 and continued progress in community reinvestment.
3 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
4 Ms. Wilkins. Wilmington good evening.
5 Can you hear? Is the mic on?
6 MS. SMITH: Yes, that's good. Wilmington can
7 you hear me?
8 MS. SMITH: Bring it a little closer.
9 Wilmington okay. I know I'm the short one in the
10 bunch.
11 My name is Betty Wilkins, and I would
12 like, first of all, to thank you for the
13 opportunity to testify on Banc One's unfair and
14 ugly lending record in Colorado, and I am the board
15 member of Colorado ACORN. It's an organization of
16 over 1,300 low and moderate income families in my
17 community who is working and trying to make a
18 decent place to live and to increase hope --
19 hopefully that we can increase the community
20 reinvestment and increase jobs and city services in
21 our community.
22 And the members of the Colorado ACORN
23 urges the Federal Reserve Board not to allow this
24 merger because of Banc One is not making loans to
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1 low and moderate income and minority people in the
2 City of Denver.
3 You have heard some of the statistics, and
4 when I heard that, I -- it was unbelievable.
5 First of all, when Banc One opened up in
6 my community, it was a beautiful and a welcome
7 sight because we really did need a bank that was
8 close where we don't have to hop on a bus every
9 time we want to go to the bank.
10 But within the past two and a half years
11 since I have been banking and trying to help my
12 community bank with Banc One, we have received
13 absolutely nothing as far as a community
14 reinvestment by -- put back into our community, and
15 I think this is very unfair and it's a very ugly
16 thing.
17 I took it on myself to do some
18 investigating on Banc One. I went by the bank last
19 Saturday morning about 9:00 o'clock. That's what
20 time the banks open. And there was a line there of
21 Afro and Latinos waiting to get in the bank to
22 deposit their money.
23 My thought was then -- I didn't say that
24 to the clients, but I thought to myself, where is
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1 this money going to go today, it definitely is not
2 going to my community because Banc One is not that
3 kind of bank to low and moderate income
4 neighborhoods.
5 And I can say it truthfully today because
6 I live it. And then I asked myself, I said, well,
7 now, how can this be? I'm not going to give you
8 any statistics at this point. I'm going to give
9 you some stories as to how this happened.
10 It seemed impossible, but it is not. And
11 I got permission from the community to do this to
12 give you some stories of what really happens.
13 One of our members, Betty Fortenberry, who
14 is African American, heard an advertisement on the
15 radio and said that she could get approved over the
16 phone for a mortgage loan.
17 She proceeded to call the number and was
18 switched over to three different people and holding
19 for a very long time. And that never did come --
20 there never did come an answer. And then after she
21 called back, she went through the same procedure,
22 except she was transferred to a fourth person and
23 then she was disconnected.
24 And she called back. And she was
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1 transferred to two different people. And finally,
2 one -- she spoke with the person who acted like she
3 knew what she was talking about. The woman asked
4 her a few questions which included name, address,
5 zip code and her annual monthly income.
6 The woman proceeded to tell her. And then
7 she said, well, I'll tell you now, you will not be
8 approved because you will have to have $10,000 of
9 your own money saved to proceed with just getting
10 the application.
11 It seemed to me that Banc One basically
12 told her she need to not apply. Mrs. Fortenberry
13 certainly could pay because she pays $800 a month
14 in rent.
15 A second story, Sandra Neville, who is
16 African American, another one of our members, saw
17 an ad on TV. And being able to be approved in 24
18 hours over the phone for a home improvement loan?
19 She called and gave them the information they asked
20 for. It took 72 hours for her to hear back, and
21 she was told that she was being denied because of a
22 problem of her credit report. And about a month
23 later, Ms. Neville was approved for the same loan
24 from her credit union.
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1 Another Latino member which did not want
2 me to use her name, but she is a member of our
3 organization who at this time wants to disclose
4 recently what happened to her. Okay.
5 What she did and -- she went to the ACORN
6 Housing Corporation where she had them to pull up
7 her savings and checking account number to check on
8 what had gone wrong with her credit. Come to find
9 out, it was Banc One that has caused this problem
10 and caused this flaw on her credit. They said that
11 she owed Banc One the whole amount of $5. And just
12 because of this, they did not take her
13 application.
14 Now, will you tell me, is this bank worthy
15 of a merger with -- to get any bigger and able to
16 treat more people as they've been doing in the
17 past?
18 I would urge you today, please, that you
19 can do this. Please take a closer look at what
20 we're telling you. It is true. Please don't have
21 this merger take place until they have their CRA
22 practices in place where me, my community, Latino
23 community or any other community can receive
24 services just like anyone else. Even though we
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1 live in a certain zone, we do work, and we do pay
2 our bills, and we're worthy of credit.
3 Thank you.
4 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
5 Any questions?
6 Okay. Thank you very much for coming this
7 afternoon.
8 And we'll move on to Panel 11. All
9 right. We'll start with Reverend Anthony.
10 MR. ANTHONY: We're together. Mr. Parker's
11 going to go first.
12 MS. SMITH: All right.