Public Meeting Regarding First Chicago and Banc One
Thursday, August 13, 1998
Transcript of Panel Four
5 MS. COLEMAN: Good morning. My name is Cora
6 Coleman, and I am a Board member of Local 880 of
7 the Service Employees International Union.
8 I am here to talk about what things could
9 be like for minorities here in Chicago when
10 Banc One takes over the local control of
11 First Chicago.
12 If it's anything like what went on in
13 Akron, Ohio, it could get ugly. In the early 90s,
14 Banc One took over the Local Central Trust in
15 Akron. Soon after, minority job applicants filed
16 employment discrimination complaints with the
17 Department of Labor.
18 After a two-year investigation, the
19 Department found that 31 qualified minority job
20 applicants were unfairly turned down for jobs at
21 Banc One, a clear-cut case of employment
22 discrimination.
23 For five years, Banc One fought the
24 Department of Labor's attempts to reform the bank's
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1 hiring practices.
2 Finally, just last year, the bank was
3 forced to hire 12 of the complainants and to
4 provide financial compensation to those minority
5 applicants it had refused to hire.
6 First Chicago NBD is a larger operation
7 than Central Trust. And squeezing the two
8 companies together is going to involve all sorts of
9 job changes, all sorts of chances for Banc One's
10 record in the lending office of turning down
11 minority applicants to come shining out in the job
12 interview.
13 We know the Federal Reserve is not
14 sympathetic to this issue since they themselves are
15 facing a large class action lawsuit from its
16 minority employees, but Banc One should be careful
17 because we will be watching with our trial
18 lawyers.
19 Banc One also has violated lending
20 discrimination laws. In March of this year,
21 Banc One Mortgage Corporation signed a lending
22 discrimination settlement with HUD after their Fort
23 Worth Humans Relation Commission filed their
24 lending complaints. They found that Banc One
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1 offered African Americans and Latinos loans at
2 worse terms than offered to whites by steering them
3 to inferior and more expensive products than their
4 conventional loan product.
5 As a result of this case, Banc One
6 Mortgage committed to provide 10 million in
7 mortgages to low and moderate income and minority
8 borrowers.
9 This pattern of discrimination continued
10 in Arizona where Banc One recently settled a case
11 with the Attorney General by agreeing to provide
12 5 million in mortgages to low and moderate income
13 residents of Yuma County. This agreement came only
14 after the state investigated complaints from five
15 Latino families who claimed they were denied
16 mortgages because of their ethnicity. Banc One
17 denied these claims, citing internal processing
18 problems.
19 One family said they received the run
20 around from Banc One Mortgage until their
21 application was delayed long enough that they lost
22 their house to another buyer.
23 When a second attempt with Banc One
24 mortgage met similar delays, they took their
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1 application to another bank and were approved
2 within a week.
3 In another instance that is strikingly
4 similar to the Phoenix example, a Dallas homeowner
5 who applied for a Banc One home improvement loan in
6 1996 cannot get his loan processed or even his
7 application rejection.
8 This practice of deterring applications of
9 prospective minority borrowers at the outset helps
10 understate the minority rejection rates.
11 These cases indicate a pattern of
12 discrimination through a series of delays and
13 deceptions that help Banc One pad their humble
14 reporting.
15 They also show us that under the threat of
16 a lawsuit, Banc One seems able to provide
17 alternative financing to meet the needs of low
18 income and minority borrowers.
19 Banc One clearly has a problem when it
20 comes to serving the banking and employment needs
21 of African Americans and Latinos. They don't seem
22 to understand that discrimination is against the
23 law.
24 The burning issue of today is does the
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1 Federal Reserve Board understand that
2 discrimination is against the law, does the Federal
3 Reserve Board have the guts to finally say no to a
4 renegade like Banc One.
5 On behalf of my union's 10,000 members, I
6 implore you to do the right thing.
7 Thank you.
8 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Shea.
10 MR. SHEA: Ted Thomas is going to speak next.
11 MS. SMITH: Okay.
12 MR. THOMAS: Good morning. My name is Ted
13 Thomas. I'm the president of Illinois ACORN.
14 Banc One has a history of refusing to
15 negotiate lending agreements to meet the needs of
16 the low income communities. The only time Banc One
17 has quantifably made a lending commitment to a city
18 was when it was forced to do so by Michael White,
19 the Mayor of Cleveland.
20 Mayor White was so disturbed by Banc One's
21 unwillingness to help him rebuild the central city,
22 he actually filed a CRA protest against the bank
23 and forced the bank to set CRA lending goals for
24 his city.
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1 ACORN has negotiated lending agreements
2 and partnership with scores of banks throughout the
3 nation. For example, we worked with Nations Bank
4 in 12 cities and with Chase Bank in ten cities.
5 Our partnerships have a proven track
6 record of performance. Since 1987, we have helped
7 over 10,000 low income families, mostly African
8 American and Latino heritage, achieve the American
9 dream of home ownership.
10 We were amazed at Banc One's flat-out
11 refusal to even discuss the formation of a
12 partnership or a corporate-wide CRA lending
13 commitment.
14 Banc One's Senior Vice President, Julie
15 Johnson, sent a rejection letter to several ACORN
16 officers. She said we do not believe in negotiated
17 CRA programs.
18 In Denver, Banc One officials have
19 canceled and postponed every meeting that has been
20 scheduled with ACORN members. To this day,
21 Banc One has not set CRA lending goals or made
22 commitments to Denver.
23 In Milwaukee, Banc One's met with ACORN
24 members. They said that they were unwilling to
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1 negotiate a lending agreement and pulled out
2 Mrs. Johnson's letter to justify their position.
3 They told the same thing to the city's Fair Lending
4 Coalition. Today, Banc One has not set CRA lending
5 goals or made a commitment to Milwaukee.
6 In Louisiana, Banc One officials have also
7 refused to enter into a partnership discussion.
8 Instead, they sent a letter saying that they
9 already do enough. To this day, Banc One has not
10 set CRA lending goals of any kind in New Orleans,
11 Baton Rouge, Shreveport or anywhere else in the
12 State of Louisiana even though they are by far the
13 largest bank in the state.
14 Unlike other bigger mergers this year,
15 Banc One has refused to make corporate-wide lending
16 CRA commitments. What Banc One has done is allow
17 the First Chicago NBD CRA team to promise a lot of
18 grants to non-profits here in Chicago and in
19 Detroit.
20 Four weeks ago, ACORN thought it had a
21 commitment from First Chicago NBD. This commitment
22 was personally given to me by the CEO of
23 First Chicago, Mr. Verne Istock. He looked me
24 right in the eye and said Ted, we value the
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1 partnership with ACORN. He said that they wanted
2 to keep it going in Detroit and Chicago and
3 possibly expand it to other cities.
4 Following that meeting, his staff told us
5 that we could expand our partnerships to Milwaukee
6 and perhaps to a couple of the bank's other
7 cities. They told us that they would value the
8 ACORN mortgage counseling program because it helped
9 them to make mortgages in places like Ingallwood,
10 North Lawndale, places where for years, banks had
11 not been able to make a single loan on its own.
12 I left the meeting feeling like things
13 were going to work out. After all, I had received
14 the word of the top dog, so I thought. Can you
15 imagine to my surprise just three days later,
16 Banc One suddenly terminated our negotiation with
17 no notice or explanation of any kind.
18 The First Chicago CRA team were very
19 apologetic and said that they would still be
20 willing to continue our program in Detroit and
21 Chicago but that they were not allowed to form CRA
22 partnerships in any additional cities.
23 When we asked what had happened to the
24 commitment from Verne Istock, they sheepishly
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1 explained that Mr. Istock had been overruled by
2 John McCoy, the CEO of Banc One. They reminded us
3 John McCoy, and not Verne Istock, was going to be
4 the CEO, the new top dog.
5 Thank you.
6 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much.
7 MR. SOZA: Hello. Good morning.
8 My name is Nelson Soza. I'm an organizer
9 with Chicago ACORN, and I want to thank the Federal
10 Reserve Bank for having reopened this comment
11 period. I think it's key for our community such as
12 the one I work in. I also want to thank the
13 members of ACORN and Local 880 that come from
14 everywhere.
15 There is justice to be made, and we think
16 that this is one of those cases, red lining.
17 People in our community understand it that way so I
18 thank everybody for being here today.
19 I proceed to read the statement.
20 The merger between Banc One and
21 First Chicago NBD poses very serious issues for the
22 residents of Chicago. It represents a loss of one
23 of the last local major banks in Chicago, one of
24 the last major banks rooted in our communities.
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1 Not that there isn't room for improvement
2 at First Chicago. Banks in Chicago reject African
3 Americans and Latinos for home loans more
4 frequently than banks in other cities, and
5 First Chicago is worse than the rest of the banks
6 here.
7 First Chicago NBD rejected African
8 Americans nearly four times as frequently as whites
9 for home loans, and Latinos were denied home loans
10 more than twice often as whites. This is far
11 higher than the citywide averages for all lenders.
12 This performance is unacceptable from a
13 bank that touts its hometown image. Incredibly,
14 even the wealthiest African Americans and Latinos
15 are rejected at the same high rates.
16 The Woodstock Institute found similar
17 patterns when looking at lower income borrowers.
18 First Chicago has much larger shares of the Chicago
19 small business and mortgage lending market for
20 wealthy borrowers than lower income borrowers.
21 Yes, First Chicago has some cracks in
22 their record, but they are nothing compared to the
23 problems of Banc One. They seem small.
24 Banc One is already in the Chicagoland
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1 area, but as you can see from the map behind me or
2 on the side over there if you look in the corner,
3 there is a map. If you look at the map there, as
4 you can see, it just isn't in Chicago.
5 Banc One isn't in Chicago really in fact
6 with exception of its branch on LaSalle Street in
7 the Loop across the street, Banc One has avoided
8 the City of Chicago as if it were the plague.
9 Its branches are located in wealthier
10 suburban neighborhoods like Schaumburg, Winnetka
11 and Highland Park. So if people from the West Side
12 want to open an account, they have to go all the
13 way there, for instance.
14 We know if past track record is any
15 indicator, then it is very likely that once
16 Banc One takes over First Chicago, it will close
17 the few First Chicago NBD branches that are in our
18 neighborhoods.
19 Banc One has always closed branches
20 following mergers no matter what the overlap in the
21 merging bank's service areas. In fact, Banc One
22 has recently announced that it will close between
23 200 and 500 branches, and somehow, I don't think
24 that it would be the branches in Winnetka and
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1 DuPage County that will be closed.
2 Banc One is planning on replacing the
3 branches with ATMs in regional outlets and
4 convenience stores where Banc One already charges
5 its own customers one dollar for each use. Compare
6 this to First Chicago, which provides unlimited ATM
7 use to its own customers for free.
8 Banc One is also teaming up with
9 Texas-based Mr. Payroll to install check cashing
10 stores across the country. These operations will
11 cash a check for you but only if you submit to
12 video identification or fingerprinting. After
13 treating you as if you were a common criminal, they
14 will then charge you one percent for payroll and
15 government checks, two percent for money orders and
16 three percent for personal checks.
17 Sadly enough, even these high rates may be
18 cheaper than the flat $8 fee Banc One charges to
19 cash a government check at its own branches, $8 for
20 a government check.
21 Again, compare this to First Chicago where
22 government checks are oftentimes cashed for free by
23 tellers who get to know their customers who have
24 government checks, many of whom are older and
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1 disabled.
2 Given the choice between locally-based
3 First Chicago and notoriously customer unfriendly
4 Banc One, we'll keep what we've got.
5 I urge you to reject this merger and the
6 high cost, low volume customer services that come
7 with it.
8 Thank you very much.
9 MS. SMITH: Ms. Vargas.
10 MR. VARGAS: Good morning. My name is Shirley
11 Vargas. I live in Pleasant Grove, Dallas, Texas.
12 Me and my fiancee went to Banc One to get
13 a home loan, and when we went in there, my fiancee
14 had worked for his job -- he started in '91 and the
15 company changed over. He was a regular employee,
16 and they changed over to independent contractors so
17 he had already filed for that independent
18 contractor, and we hadn't been there -- he hadn't
19 filed very long.
20 After that, we went there, and they said
21 that he had to have at least four years tax returns
22 for an independent contractor before we could even
23 consider a loan.
24 The money I was making, he said that I
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1 didn't qualify for the $65,000 home that we wanted
2 to purchase. We had $4,200 to put down on it, and
3 they didn't even consider that. They said that I
4 didn't make enough money and that for us to come
5 back in two years for us to get a loan. And that
6 was just unfair.
7 We didn't go anywhere else after that
8 because we thought we couldn't get a loan, we
9 couldn't get a loan from any other bank.
10 Because I had an account there, I thought
11 that Banc One would be able to help me out, and
12 they didn't. They said no, and that was it, and I
13 think it was very unfair.
14 And they didn't even look at our
15 application, they didn't even do a credit check.
16 They just said no, that we needed to come back in
17 two years after we had tax returns, we had all the
18 information that they asked us for.
19 They didn't even consider it. They just
20 said no, you need to come back. And I just think
21 that's really unfair.
22 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much. Mr. Shea.
23 MR. SHEA: Good morning. My name's Mike Shea
24 I'm Executive Director of ACORN Housing
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1 Corporation.
2 The merger of First Chicago NBD and
3 Banc One is not a merger of equals, so let's get
4 that straight, it's an acquisition.
5 We are losing First Chicago and a more
6 open and efficient cosmopolitan culture that it has
7 developed. It has been replaced by the arrogant
8 big fish in a small pond approach by Banc One, an
9 approach that is both inefficient and racially
10 prejudiced.
11 And in case anyone here still has any
12 doubts about which bank's culture will survive,
13 consider the remarks made by John McCoy to the
14 Arkansas Business Journal during another merger.
15 He he said, "I don't believe in a merger of
16 equals. We want to be sure it is the Banc One
17 culture that survives."
18 And what happened with the golden
19 parachutes recently provided to First Chicago's
20 senior management? They are very unusual in that
21 Verne Istock, David Pitalle and others must leave
22 the new bank in order to get the money. If they
23 stay, they get nothing.
24 And finally, why wasn't the outstanding
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1 First Chicago CRA team headed by Mary Decker and Ed
2 Jacob appointed to be the national CRA directors
3 for the new bank? We like Mary. She understands
4 our communities and how to make workable
5 partnerships with the community.
6 We have supported other candidates for
7 appointment to the Board of Governors of the
8 Federal Reserve. Why is it that McCoy has hired
9 someone who has never negotiated a single CRA
10 agreement in his life to hold this key position?
11 So let's look at the Banc One culture
12 starting with politics. So Banc One is one bad
13 bank unless you are a right-wing Republican trying
14 to kill the CRA, cut the guts out of federal
15 programs that feed children and women and house the
16 poor. Then Banc One is your friend and will reward
17 you with lots of campaign money. But if you are a
18 Democrat, then this merger is very bad news
19 indeed.
20 First Chicago has always divided its
21 political contributions fairly evenly between
22 Democrats and Republicans, for example, they hosted
23 a dinner to help U.S. Senator Carol Mosely-Brown
24 retire her campaign debt from the last election,
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1 but not so with Banc One.
2 The Banc One PAC gives four times more
3 campaign money to Republicans than the Democrats.
4 Banc One is buying First Chicago. Guess which
5 political party stands to gain. Banc One PAC's
6 largest political donations just don't go to
7 Republicans, they go to the most extreme
8 Republicans who are trying to cut the CRA, for
9 example, Exhibit A, Representative Bill McCullom of
10 Florida received $17,000 from Banc One.
11 Representative McCullom is the guy that supported
12 the amendment that passed the House Subcommittee
13 this week that would exempt 85 percent of all banks
14 in the Community Reinvestment Act.
15 Exhibit B, Senator Lloyd Faircloth, Jesse
16 Helms, heir apparent in North Carolina, gets
17 $15,000 from Banc One, Exhibit C. Congressman
18 Casich, Chair of the House Budget Committee and
19 architect of many of the Republicans Urban
20 Transportation and Children's Nutrition Programs,
21 he gets $17,000.
22 The Banc One PAC is very large. This is a
23 very politically active bank. In the 1996 election
24 cycle, Banc One PAC was the seventh largest PAC
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1 contributing more money than the American Medical
2 Association, American Bankers Association or
3 Phillip Morris. In the '98 cycle, they have
4 already given more $535,000 with reactionary
5 Republicans again enjoying a four-to-one edge in
6 contributions over Democrats. So when Banc One
7 grows, so does the Republican Party.
8 Secondly, Banc One is one bad bank for
9 Chicago shareholders. Banc One's market value has
10 collapsed since the merger was announced in April,
11 and it's pulled down First Chicago with it.
12 The stock price on the date of the merger
13 announcement in April, First Chicago closed at
14 96.25. Banc One closed unchanged at 61.70. At the
15 close of trading on August 11th, First Chicago was
16 at $72, a decrease of 25 percent. Banc One was
17 also a decrease of 26 percent.
18 Compare this to Citibank. Citibank's
19 stock has actually increased one percent since the
20 announcement of their deal with Travelers in spite
21 of the downturn in financial stocks.
22 With this merger, we have an extremely
23 efficient bank being bought out by an extremely
24 inefficient one. According to the Wall Street
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1 Journal two weeks ago, First Chicago is the most
2 efficient bank in the country. Banc One, on of the
3 top ten, was rated eighth or ninth.
4 The track of Banc One's other mergers
5 reflects the fact that they are not efficient.
6 They have had tremendous cost overruns in every
7 other merger.
8 So to wrap up, I would say that our
9 opposition of Banc One will not stop this merger.
10 Make no mistake about it, we know that the Fed is
11 going to approve this merger like they have every
12 other single merger. Doesn't matter how bad the
13 bank is, we know the Fed's going to approve it.
14 However, we're just putting Banc One on notice at
15 this meeting that we will take our case to other
16 more impartial venues, we will take our case to
17 shareholders, take our case to the labor movement,
18 we will take our case to the community, and we will
19 take our case to the courts. We will not stop
20 until we have forced this bank to change.
21 Thank you.
22 MS. SMITH: Mr. Williams.
23 MR. WILLIAMS: Madam Chairperson and
24 distinguished members of the Federal Reserve Panel,
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1 the Coalition of Neighborhoods is a non-profit
2 coalition of six racially and economically
3 integrated communities.
4 The Coalition, in keeping with our mission
5 to maintain, expand and promote healthy, integrated
6 communities, have trained our leadership to
7 integrate the compliance requirements of HMDA, CRA,
8 ECOA, RESPA, EEO and the Fair Housing Act.
9 It is our belief that the Federal Reserve
10 System which has contributed significantly to the
11 establishment of these laws and regulations must
12 now contribute more significantly to their
13 enforcement.
14 The coalition stands behind all of the
15 statements in our July 13th, 1998 challenge of this
16 merger. Banc One's July 22nd, 1998 response to our
17 challenge may have some slightly different numbers
18 than we submitted, but the conclusions are the
19 same.
20 Their weak mortgage loan production is not
21 responsive to the need of a 38 percent home
22 ownership rate in Cincinnati. The unresponsive
23 business lending speaks for itself, but I have
24 attached to this testimony a couple of antidotal
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1 situations that we believe illuminate what some
2 black and white businesses experienced with
3 Banc One Cincinnati.
4 We believe that a public hearing at the
5 Cincinnati Federal Reserve Bank, comparison of the
6 '96, '97 HMDA data and residential mortgage and
7 business loan file review will support what we have
8 alleged.
9 Our challenge and the bank's responses
10 adequately describes a needs to improve performance
11 based or our prospective of the lack of innovation,
12 no complexities solved and the unresponsiveness of
13 Banc One relative to the overall needs in the
14 Cincinnati area.
15 This hearing today and the subsequent
16 merger decision has more to do with the credibility
17 of the regulatory agencies than that of the two
18 banks involved.
19 Renowned HMDA, CRA and financial experts
20 from all over the country in independent
21 assessments of Banc One's performance have
22 condcluded that the bank's approval and patterns in
23 Black, Hispanic and LMI census tracts suggest
24 violation of fair lending and consumer protection
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1 laws, and therefore, non-compliance with CRA.
2 And First Chicago NBD's 1996 data shows
3 that the bank only originated a total of 29 loans
4 in MSA 1640. All 29 went to white borrowers.
5 We find it odd that as the government,
6 regulatory and financial industries move to
7 implement direct deposit programs under the EFT 99
8 that Banc One would close one of only three
9 branches it has in Cincinnati's Black community,
10 thereby reducing access.
11 The Roselawn branch closure which is in a
12 middle class Black neighborhood closed and reduced
13 competition which may lead to overpricing of loans
14 and services by the one remaining bank in that
15 community.
16 We also find it odd that the OCC nor the
17 Federal Reserve found issue with the isolated North
18 Fairmount location and the fact that it has no ATM
19 or drive-through window. How does this meet the
20 convenience and needs of that community?
21 Banc One's poor record in the appointment
22 of Blacks its Board and officer positions and its
23 poor record in procuresment of services from Black
24 providers in comparison to whites, especially in
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1 the area of marketing and advertisement was ignored
2 on the basis that they don't fall under CRA.
3 This is a form of unsophisticated denial
4 and a sense of certainty that the Federal Reserve
5 won't integrate the analyses of these concepts in
6 context of their relationship to discriminatory
7 lending.
8 We strongly believe that a mentality and
9 culture that refuses to properly serve Blacks in
10 the areas above will have no problem in
11 rationalizing away the indications of underserving
12 and discrimination.
13 In addition, you cannot penetrate a market
14 if you don't advertise and through it and to it.
15 Since Banc One does very little in this area, the
16 low number of Black applications to Banc One from
17 Black borrowers is the result.
18 Finally, with respect to partnership, we
19 know that many NDC/CDC type organizations have and
20 will provide honest testimony as to how Banc One
21 partnered to help them achieve certain projects,
22 but projects should not substitute for a broader
23 economic substitute for a broader economic
24 development strategy and plan to address
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1 comprehensive reinvestment needs.
2 Banc One has a business plan with a
3 budget. The Federal Reserve is deeply involved in
4 the development of its year 2000 plan and the
5 budget to get it done.
6 Given this insight, we encourage the
7 Federal Reserve to push the envelope on performance
8 and partnerships by giving the proposed Banc One/
9 First Chicago merger a conditional approval until
10 market level negotiated agreements substitute
11 agreements similar to the agreement between
12 First Chicago NBD and the Chicago CRA Coalition
13 have been established with budgets.
14 Finally, Madam Chair, I bring this
15 testimony that was handed to me on my way out of
16 town by Ms. Lavera Kosin, a businesswoman, and we
17 will resubmit it in a typed form.
18 MS. SMITH: We will be glad to have it for the
19 record.
20 I also wanted to ask Mr. Soza, are those
21 exhibits we saw part of our testimony? Did you
22 include that in your testimony?
23 MR. SOZA: We can get copies before the end of
24 the hearings today.
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1 MS. SMITH: That would be great, and then we
2 will incorporate them.
3 Any questions?
4 Thank you very much for coming this
5 morning. We appreciate your comments.
6 We're up to Panel 5, and we're going to
7 start with Mr. Bush.